"Have No Fellowship With the Unfruitful Works of Darkness, But Rather EXPOSE Them!" ~ GOD, Ephesians 5:11

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May 19, 2006

Constant Controversy Continues…

…As Deb’s "conscience" gets the best of her.

So I thought this circus phenomenon had grown old and left town, but apparently Deb is still all in a tizzy over this homosexuality thing, according to her latest post Holier Than Thou.

For those of you who don't already know, Deb is a self-proclaimed “Neurotic Christian Lesbian” who preaches and teaches God’s love for all, but she gets extremely hateful and defensive towards me once I point out in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin, it’s a perversion, and an abomination to God!

Oh – “But we all sin, ” cries Deb! “A sin is a sin is a sin,” she says. Besides, “God is all about love and you can’t judge me.”

Well, yes I can judge you Deb - and being a lesbian is a sin and it is wrong! It's true, we all sin. But, just because you are supposedly “saved” does that give you a free ticket to continue to mock God and slap Him in the face by openly living a sexually immoral life, while professing to be Christian? NO!

Sure God is Love. But God is also Just, Holy and Righteous. He is full of wrath and vengeance to those who mock Him.

In Psalms 5:5 God says, “I HATE all those who do iniquity.” That sure isn’t very "loving" of God to say, is it?

Deb – As a "Christian" Lesbian, what exactly sets you apart from the rest of the world?

In Romans 12:1-2 it says -- "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

You and your "gay" friends bring utter shame to Christianity!

I already know that nothing I say will change your mind, so I’m washing my hands of it.

Live your life. Do what you want. Mock God. Call me hateful. I really don't care.

But - Don't lie about me on your blog and put words in my mouth. I never once said, "God hates faggots" like you wrote on your post. You misrepresent my character in order to glorify yourself. Well, whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

If you are so sure of yourself and your lifestyle, what do you really have to worry about anyway? But, for some odd reason you’re still trying to justify it, hmmm?

Hey Deb ~ Maybe it's your "conscience" telling you that homosexuality is wrong afterall???


**Read what else this "Neurotic Lesbian" is talking about =>

Is Homosexuality a Perversion? & Walking In Love


  1. If you are so sure of yourself and your lifestyle, what do you really have to worry about anyway? But, for some odd reason you’re still talking about it, hmmm?

    Odd you have an entire blog about it, then. Not so sure about your own lifestyle?

    And just to continue with the hypocrisy them, here's a nice little quote from Dani in an earlier comment:

    where does this "sense" of right and wrong come from? Do other animals have a conscious to know right from wrong?

    ...yet you make fun of someone for exactly the same mistake you made.

    Also, your God seems to resemble a spoiled child. "It's my world, and I HATE everyone who doesn't do what I want them to ", says God. "Why oh why did I give them free will? I guess my omniscience magic was on the fritz that day!"

    At least Satan realizes He's evil.

  2. Hmm, Phronk just said it all. A blog totally dedicated to homosexuality and judging others. Ironic huh?

    Beautifully said Phronk!

    God bless you Dani! :)

  3. Seeking approval from an atheist and enemy of God like Phronk, is indicative of your character, Deb. Nothing ironic about it. And anyone who spends more than two minutes on my blog already knows that it is not totally dedicated to homosexuality and judging others. I only happen to be talking about this again because you brought it up again, remember?

    Check it out though => I do have a special section on my sidebar totally dedicated to you, just keep scrolling down sister. There is something truly special about you, Deb, but it's not because you are "loving" and it's not because you are a lesbian either.

  4. I have to say, you are way too caught up in this deal. You are forgetting that you aren't battling flesh and blood here. And yet I began to wonder as I read your page, if you are getting a kick out of all the attention. I have to say I agree with Bob(he asked to be removed from your page) You may have points that I personally agree with, but you are not handling any of this the right way. You definantly come across as a know it all, sarcastic, super-duper" think you're perfect christian and you will never save souls that way-NEVER. What you are doing is giving these people NO chance to see the love of God and you are showing hate, condemnation and Major self righteousness. Just remember you are representing God and maybe you should re-evaluate the way you are doing that. One thing that comes to mind is this, "You are so spiritual minded, you've become no earthly good..." You act and re-act in this childish war. People are allowed free will. If you are the bible scholar as you portray yourself to be, you would know that. There's nothing wrong with trying to spread the "truth" but you are continually pushing your thoughts on unfurtile ground. And you continue to sling mudd back and forth over this blogging playground. I hestitate to consider how you are teaching your children? To hate or show hate to others that are "sinning"? How, Dani then do you plan to be a fisher of men? By only pointing out others faults? It is simple really, how is this working for you? Are you saving a lot of homosexual souls by posting all this bickering? I would wonder than how well this is working for you. Because if you are a christian than you would realize that is your mission here. Be truthful, not to condemn. Hate the sin, love the sinner. (which by the way we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God) I think you seriously need to pray about the way you are dealing with this situation and handling yourself. Have you in pursuit of making your points forgotten what you should really be striving for? Believe me, you won't add a single soul to the kingdom of God by continuing this behavior. I hope you would consider this. I truly don't mean it in a bad way.

  5. To summarize Dani's thoughts:

    "I'm not unsure about my repressed homosexuality issues! I barely talk about it at all! Oh, by the way, I've dedicated an entire section of my sidebar to homosexuality issues."


  6. Miss Informed -

    Thanks for stopping by and for your comments. This indeed has been a hot topic lately and I am aware that my message may come across as "hateful" to those who reject the truth. There is plenty of "love" in my message for those who are seeking it, but the majority of my readers are hardened heathens and the "Jesus loves you" message just doesn't fly around here. If someone is looking for a nice, warm and fuzzy "feel good" message, they can go to a thousand other sites for that.

    Further, as I have pointed out before in my profile, you are all forewarned - "My beliefs are radical, oftentimes offensive, and fundamental to the core. Everybody seems to know how I appear to be, however, only few know who I truly am. Chances are, you’re either going to love me or hate me..."

    Please don't presume that you know me or the intentions of my heart. I come from a background of total depravity and perversion so I have a clear understanding of the fallen mindset of those who read this blog, and I am reaching out to them in a way that will get their attention - seems to be working!

    People DO have a free will, like you said. Just like I am free to write what I want, people are free to NOT read what I write.

    No need to concern yourself with how I raise my children. What goes on in bloggerville is far different than what goes on at home. There is no "hate" being taught, but we do teach them right from wrong.

    As for Deb - while everyone is accusing me of being "hateful" towards her for being a "Christian" lesbian, I am the only one who loves her enough to tell her the truth. It's like this: Deb is recklessly speeding down a mountain road and all of her friends are cheering her on saying, "Way to go, Deb! We love you...No need to slow down, just do what makes you happy." Meanwhile, I waving my hands shouting out, "Deb - slam on the breaks! There is a cliff ahead! If you don't stop, your going to die!" Her loving friends keep telling tell her, "Just ignore Dani! She's just a sarcastic know-it-all. If you want to drive off a cliff - go right ahead! Do what feels good because no one can judge you!"

    My "mission" here is not to save souls, for only God can do that. My mission is to rebuke the wicked in hopes of driving them towards repentance, instead of off a cliff.

    Proverbs 24:25 - "But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them."

    P.S. For the last time - "Hate the sin and love the sinner" is NOT in the Bible!

  7. Okay, I read some on your page and I have to give it to you, you are well informed. Are you a pastor's wife, you look really YOUNG? How have you gotten so involved in firmiliarizing yourself with all this information? Other than the obvious, the Bible ofcourse. Does your church do special bible studies? I don't think hate the sin, love the sinner is in the bible by the way, it is just a saying, although Jesus hung out with the "filthiest" of people in His time of ministry. Well that's it for now.

  8. Hi Dani!

    This thread seems to be getting very personal but it needn't be...

    Sin leads to spiritual death. That's why it's important not to 'bend' on issues of sexual sin just because it offends whose who are caught up in it.

    Love does not mean approving of everything a person does so they can feel good about him or herself. It's more difficult to confront someone about a destructive behavior and risk that person's wrath and displeasure.

    Thinking God is a 'big mean baddie' is commonplace. We all thought the same thing about our parents at one time or another. The God of the Bible is an authority figure and there are a lot of people who simply hate authority, thus the prevelance of designer religion these days.

    Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

  9. Hey Bunny Lover - Good to hear from you again! Thanks so much for your great comments and insights! I appreciate it. Sometimes it can get pretty brutal around here, but I know I bring it on myself.


    Thanks to you too Miss Informed - No I am not a pastor's wife. I am also very young, but my oldest daughter is eleven, so I feel much older than I am. My husband and I are very blessed to have a great pastor named Bob Enyart of Denver Bible Church - maybe you have heard of him?

    Before we started attending his church we listened to his radio show for several years. Then we began to order monthly Bible study albums and we bought his manuscript The Plot: Overview of the Bible which revolutionized the way we read and understand the context of the Bible.

    You can find many of Bob's writings and debates along my sidebar and you can listen to his show online at => KGOV.com. Although he is in Greece right now on a Bible tour so the shows will probably be a rebroadcast for the next two weeks. All of the archives are GREAT though. We started listening back in 2001 and he really got us hooked. You should check it out if you can - it has been the foundation of our knowledge (besides the Bible of course).

    And for the record, I do love the sinner, that is why I write what I do. If Deb repented, I would be her best friend in the world - no doubt. But until then, I will continue to hate the way she mocks God and expose her for the fraud that she is.

    Please visit again and feel free to say what's on your mind! You're pretty spunky and I like that!

  10. Dani,

    And no, I don’t hate you at all. I’m just surprised that you are so taken back by this. There are so many contradictories and interpretations of the bible. If you think that my partner and I who have been together for 12 yrs, not hurting anyone is called “wicked”, then that’s your view. That’s “okay”. The thing that I don’t get is, the fact that you categorize me the same as a rapist or murderer. I do love Jesus, and no I don’t think I’m mocking Him if I go to Him everyday in prayer and meditation. I feel I have a personal relationship with Him, and if He guides me to another lifestyle, then He will do that in His own time. I’m sorry for all my sins---each and every one of them. Each one of us bears a cross. I know this.

    From what you wrote above, I do understand where you’re coming from. You feel that my sin will put me to hell, and my friends are cheering that on. I looked at your comment in another view, and thought, “Hey, maybe she really is trying to help me, or try to push me onto the ~right path~…..” I appreciate that. I just feel bad when people categorize me as same as people who intentionally hurt others. I don’t feel my lifestyle with my long-term partner is hurting anyone.

    You know what’s funny about this though? If you and I were to bump into each other somewhere, we’d probably get along fine. (Until we got into religion and politics) ha! But seriously, I’m going to say ‘thank you’ for your intentions of putting me on the right path. Yes, I’m neurotic and I have a lot of mental issues to work out- but they’re “fun” ones. Hehe… I find humor in having OCD and being germ free (cause I see you were poking fun at that---which I laughed at----I thought it wash humorous too!) But sarcasm and poking fun at yourself is a quality that I choose to have. Yeah I may wash my hands about 20 times per day, and yes I keep that antibacterial gel handy—just in case and sometimes, I check that stove about 10 times before I go to sleep. But it’s all good.

    Again, thanks, and I wish you and your family well.

    P.S. Thank you for putting me on your sidebar. I mean that! I wish I knew how to fiddle around with this HTML stuff, but I'm technically challenged. :(

    Enjoy your day!

  11. Matthew 7:1
    Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    Obey your God, Dani.

  12. Dani,

    I was on the fence with my perception of you until today. Quite frankly at first I thought you were a legalistic loon trying to beat people down the road to salvation, spewing hate and vengeance all the way; all while being a hypocrite yourself (the Eminem thing got me). I’ve read more of what you said lately and respect your responses to Miss Informed a great deal.

    I’ve known all along that homosexuality is a sin (not any greater than any other sin but still a sin) and a perversion of God’s intended plan. That it has the power to destroy families and society and is systematically being forced, somewhat subtly, onto the children of today.

    I honestly believe Deb truly loves her partner, I really do. Being a mere human it is very difficult for me to balance our loving God with our righteous God who while “love” pleases Him, it must be a righteous love. I wish sometimes that things were different as I have also struggled with homosexuality and know who I am attracted to in my flesh (women) and who I am designed to be with by God (men). That is why I asked you if the sin comes in the desire or the action. I am innocent in action, but guilt of desire. I believe all things are possible to be overcome through Christ and must rely on Him to change my desires.

    I feel for Deb but because of what I’ve read on her blog I have no choice but to reject it even though I feel differently because it is contradictory to the scriptures. You can’t pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible, you either believe it all or you believe none of it.

    Anyway, a long winded way of saying I “get you” and while I do think you tend to come across harsh at times (especially with the bumper stickers), I know that you are choosing a hard road. My only concern, and my opinion is, that you may push more people away than come in.

    prayers and best wishes,

  13. Hey Deb ~

    While I know there are many 'apparent' contradictories and interpretations of the bible, I believe God is very clear in the issue of sexual immorality. It would be along the same lines of me living together with my husband before were were married and openly professing to be Christians while we are fornicating together. Sure we love each other and have been together for a long time, and on the surface it doesn't seem like we are hurting anyone. But the truth is, we were hurting people in our church by causing them to stumble in their own by faith thinking fornicating is okay. More importantly, we were hurting God by deliberately living in disobedience towards Him. Trust me, we tried to justify it for over a year - God would want us to be happy, right? Besides, we love each other and are committed to each other, so there is no harm in that...or so we thought! God cannot bless us when we are living in sin, and we realized what a poor witness for Christ we were being so we decided to move out and live separately until we got married.

    Personally, I really have no clue what it must be like lesbian. Although I had some "encounters" when I was young and rebellious, I never was truly a homosexual. And I'm sure you really love your partner. However, sexual sin is sexual sin, and I have sinned plenty in that area and I know it is not pleasing to the Lord. I don't think you are as "wicked" as a murderer or rapist, but God is the one who classified them in that same category together since homosexuality was once a crime that was punishable by death.

    Also, I don't think you are going to hell - only God knows your heart and I'm sure you love Him and seek to honor Him. My concern is the message you are sending out to non-believers and believers that being a homosexual is okay and acceptable in the eyes of God since we are all sinners. But it's NOT acceptable, and I think you already know that. While we are all sinners, we should not be proud of it and proclaim it to the world.

    But, no doubt about it - If you and I were to bump into each other somewhere, we’d probably get along just fine. In fact, we'd probably become great friends, and if I'm ever up in NY or you're in Denver we will definitely have to go out for cocktails together.

    Please know that my intention are not driven by hate, far from it. I love you as a sister in Christ, and my prayer is that you will seek to glorify God in all that you do.

    Take care and keep in touch!

    Love ~ Dani


    ME - Thanks for your heartfelt response. Naturally, the message that I "preach" will push away more people than will come in, but it is that one person that "gets it" that makes it all worthwhile.

    God Bless you for taking the high road! You CAN overcome all things through Christ.

    BTW - I don't recommend that anyone listen to Eminem, he just happens to be my preference. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite though.

  14. Good job in explaining yourself Dan. (I was thrown by the bumper stickers as well.) I am glad I have continued to check in on your page to catch a glimpse of more of the "whole picture" here. I am understanding you more. I feel good about that. I have heard of your pastor & will have to check out the stuff you messaged me on. Thanks...

  15. Thank you Dani. I really appreciated what you said. Although we have differences, I do see and understand your point.

    Love to you! And I also apologize for the negative dialog we have been dishing out to one another.

  16. I had some "encounters" when I was young...Now I don't believe you. I need pictures for proof.

  17. Ah! MEN! Gotta love it! ;) jk

  18. we were hurting people in our church by causing them to stumble in their own by faith thinking fornicating is okay. More importantly, we were hurting God by deliberately living in disobedience towards Him

    This is something I find interesting. Until now, you've been justifying your crusade against homosexuality (and "fornication") by saying it harms people through disease, risky lifestyle, etc.

    Now there's this...which could seem like a better reason. But really it comes down to "it's wrong because God says it's wrong", or "it's wrong because it will make other people think it's right"

    And really, those are even more ridiculous reasons. If God says something is wrong, but there is no external reason for it (e.g. it causes no harm to anybody), then hey, maybe God made a mistake when he said it was wrong, or we have misinterpreted His word. Didn't He give us free will so that we can make these decisions ourselves?

    And if it will influence other people, maybe that's a good thing. If something is not hurting anyone, then people should know that so they don't have unnecessary biases.

  19. I'm really glad Deb and Dani are actually having a nice dialog. I wish there was more of this on the net instead of all the venom and name calling.

    Regarding Deb's and Phronk's assertion that certain activities or practices seem harmless, I would like to point out Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

    The danger here is rationalizing in your own mind what is right and wrong. It's so easy to conclude that what one is doing isn't hurting anyone. Sometimes it's true but when you elevate your rationalization above the Word of God you are entering dangerous ground.

    I lived with a guy for 8 years and at the time saw nothing wrong with it. Looking back I feel that this relationship was spiritually damaging. All I can do is repent from that kind of thing and move on. God has healed a lot of the wounds in my psyche that caused me to seek out that particular relationship in the first place.

    I have the free will to take God's word seriously and the more I walk with him, the more I see that what he said in his Word makes a lot of sense. Staying within those boundaries is for me a spiritual safety net and I don't miss the days when I 'did my own thing'. Not by a long shot.

    Butchieboy - the whole 'judge not' thing gets pretty old. There is a difference between judging and discerning right from wrong.

  20. *Phronk-God did give us all free will, that doesn't mean that we won't face the consequences of that. Keep in mind God also made a heaven AND a hell. Therefore there is a reason for that...Also, God doesn't make mistakes, He is the only perfect thing we can count on. You can't misinterpet something so clearly defined in scripture, quite fighting with Dani about it, and go research it for yourself. It is all in the bible. I bet if you did, this subject would be dropped.

  21. Well, once again I guess this all comes down to whether God exists or not, and whether the Bible is 100% true or not.

    I believe that the answer is "not" to both. You guys obviously believe the opposite.

    There is no point in discussing smaller issues if we disagree on these fundamental ones. Our sources of opinions on these issues, and our criteria for judging them, are completely different.

    So I guess it's silly for me to comment here. We're not even on the same wavelength and I can't change that. I just keep seeing things that bug the Hell out of me and have trouble keeping my mouth (er, fingers) shut. :) I appreciate that you guys are happy with your religions, even if I think much of what you believe is either false, misguided or immoral. But yeah, happiness is what matters, so if you are truly happing believing what you do, it's no place of mine to interfere. Have a great day.

  22. Thanks Bunny Lover and Miss Informed for helping me out on this. There is only so much time to address all these issues. Great verse too Bunny! - "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."

    Phronk - My crusade isn't against homosexuality and fornication, but ALL sex outside of marriage. Yes, it is wrong because God says it's wrong, but God sets restrictions on sexual relationships for our own good.

    When people have sex outside a marriage relationship it does harm them through diseases like herpes, HPV which results in sterility and cancer, other STD's and AIDS resulting in death - so yes, sexual promiscuity is a risky lifestyle. In addition to that, there is the emotional aspect which results in strife, both personal and interpersonal, violence, jealously, instability, depression, selfishness, death – murder/suicide. And of course, the greater problem of “unwanted” pregnancies which leads to abortion, and “unwanted” children who grow up without mothers or fathers. Children without married parents will grow to hate and resent their parents, and 9 times out of 10 children will repeat this process of their parents.

    From a spiritual perspective and one who seeks to honor God, it is reckless and damaging to those around us if we are professing for be Christians, but are openly living a sexually immoral life. For you Phonk, to be fornicating with your girlfriend is acceptable considering that you have no moral standards to live by. It is your God-given free will to do as you choose, however, you WILL pay the consequences for your choices.

    On the other hand, it is NOT acceptable for Deb to openly be a lesbian because as a Christian, she does have a standard to live by, God's standard - and it hurts the Body of Christ when His followers are living in disobedience towards Him.

    You said that you think much of what we believe is either false, misguided or immoral - How do you know since you have no standards to base your decisions on?

  23. Everybody in this thread is arguing from a different paradigm. I agree w/Phronk that we have different worldviews this pretty much drives where we are coming from.

    I am aware that there are Christians who believe that the scriptures condemning various sexual behaviors are 'misinterpretations'. There are whole theologies devoted to this view. What I hear from this camp is that as long as you have a mutual loving relationship anything goes. Dani and I just don't happen to share that view.

    Listen to what Jesus said to the church of Thyatira (Revelations 2). His comments concern the tolerance of false teaching - ie that sexual sin [porneuo] and idolatry were 'OK'. Was Jesus being mean, unloving and intolerant? Was he failing to be 'inclusive'?

    19 "I know all the things you do-your love, your faith, your service, and your patient endurance. And I can see your constant improvement in all these things. 20 But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman-that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet-to lead my servants astray. She is encouraging them to worship idols, eat food offered to idols, and commit sexual sin. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she would not turn away from her immorality. 22 Therefore, I will throw her upon a sickbed, and she will suffer greatly with all who commit adultery with her, unless they turn away from all their evil deeds. 23 I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve. 24 But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching (`deeper truths,' as they call them-depths of Satan, really). I will ask nothing more of you 25 except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come.

  24. Hey Bunny - Another Great Verse, Thanks! I didn't even know of that one.

    See - I am still learning new things everyday. Just keep em' comin'!

    I think if people did come across Jesus today, they would label Him as being mean, unloving and intolerant.

    Thanks again!

  25. you have no moral standards to live by. It is your God-given free will to do as you choose, however, you WILL pay the consequences for your choices.

    You are wrong about this, as I've explained before here and elsewhere. I have moral standards that I live by. Everybody does. They just happen to differ from yours.

    I live my life in such a way that I maximize happiness and minimize unhappiness. That is the ultimate standard - happiness is the currency of life. Things that promote love and happiness for me and others are good. Things that cause hate and unhappiness are not good.

    Sometimes this overlaps with your standard (e.g. we both agree that murder is wrong, except in certain circumstances)...sometimes it doesn't (I think two lesbians living together and loving each other is pretty much the epitome of good...you think it's wrong). But please don't think I have no moral standards. That couldn't be further from the truth.

    The whole reason I keep coming back here, and the reason much of what you say bugs me, is that I am quite passionate about my moral standards, and some of what you say rubs up against them. And not in a good way.

    And you say I will face the consequences for my choices. Well, that's only if God exists and everything you believe is true. I think the chances of that are slim.

    And also - believe it or not, I'm a good person. I do things to make the world a better place. Will God judge me based on the kind of person I am, or on whether I say "I believe in God" every day? And if God is the type of being who rewards hollow statement of belief rather than benevolent action, then do I really want to spend eternity with him? Maybe I'd rather be with Satan. *

    And please don't quote bible verses here. I am talking in general, not about specifics of your religion. Remember, the bible could be wrong, no matter how strongly you beleive it to be right. If you can't admit that, then it can hardly be called "faith" can it? I certainly admit that much of what I believe could be wrong. Life would be pretty boring if I knew everything and my beliefs never changed.

    I'm rambling though. Again, just trying to educate you on how us non-believers think.

    * that quote strengthens this point. He's the kinda guy who kills children just because their parents disagree with him? Does that really feel right to you guys?

  26. Phronk - thanks for trying to educate us on how us non-believers think.

    Ffrom my radical perspective, I am convinced that an atheist really has nothing to loose, either way. If there is no afterlife and God doesn’t exist, atheists will have lived a full life without restrain in a way that will maximize happiness.

    But, if God does exist, there is still good news for the atheist...
    If there is an afterlife when we die, an atheist will still have lived a full life in pursuit of happiness and once he dies, he will be right at home continuing to live an eternity completely separated from God.

    The TRUTH is, whether you believe it or not, is that we are ALL created as eternal beings – body, spirit and soul. Once we die a physical death, our bodies return to dust, but our souls live on forever. We will either spend eternity with God, or eternity separated from God. It’s your choice. But someday you're going to die.

    Not to worry though -- God is not unjust where He would force anyone to love Him and spend eternity with Him. Obviously an atheist like you would be absolutely miserable in the presence of God. Spending eternity separated from God is the non-believers deepest desire, and entire life’s pursuit. You will never have to waste precious time planning and worrying about an afterlife because God would never force someone to spend eternity in a place where they did not want to be.

    Just live this life to the fullest - cause when it's over, there will be hell to pay. (no pun intended) He-he!

  27. I am convinced that an atheist really has nothing to loose, either way. If there is no afterlife and God doesn’t exist, atheists will have lived a full life without restrain in a way that will maximize happiness.

    True enough. So an atheist will be happier in this life. And if God ends up not existing, then his worshipers will have wasted time in prayer that they could have spent improving their lives and the world around them. Sort of a reverse Pascal's wager going on here.

    But remember that an atheist has plenty to lose in this life! If there's no afterlife, this fragile life we're given is all the atheist has. In that sense, we have more to lose. Even more incentive to have moral standards so we can look back on our lives and know we lived them well. There are no second chances.

    The TRUTH is, whether you believe it or not, is that we are ALL created as eternal beings

    Well, that's what you believe the truth to be. Most people in this world think otherwise. Either they're all wrong, or you're wrong. I'm not saying you are...but can't you at least admit the possibility?

    Spending eternity separated from God is the non-believers deepest desire, and entire life’s pursuit.

    Well that's just silly. Atheism (in most cases) is passive...it takes no pursuing, just a lack of pursuit. And it's a bit contradictory to say they "desire" to spend life separated from God. If they don't believe in God, they can't desire to be separated from Him. If I tell you there's an invisible dragon beside you right now, you don't "desire" to be separated from that dragon. You just don't believe it's there. No desire involved.

  28. Phronk -

    What makes you think that I'm not happy? Just because I believe in God? Well that’s just silly!

    You're right about there being no second chances in this life - you will still live forever though - pretty risky don't ya think?

    You once said that that even animals have souls - how do you know? Do you have a soul? Does it just evaporate once you die? Or is there a chance your soul is eternal...can't you at least admit the possibility?

    I could admit that there is a possibility that I am wrong - but I already know that I'm not, so no since in lying about it. I used to be wrong when I thought like everyone else, but then I came to the knowledge of the Truth. It's only a matter of time for you too - then the blinders will be lifted off.

    I glad you're a least thinking about this stuff!

  29. What makes you think that I'm not happy? Just because I believe in God?

    Ummm...I didn't say you were unhappy. I'm sure you're happy in your fantasy world. I said an atheist could be happier, in response to what you said:

    atheists will have lived a full life without restrain in a way that will maximize happiness.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating your beliefs instead of addressing the logic behind them.

    I obviously don't believe in an immaterial (whatever that means) soul. But you could label having certain properties...morality, intelligence, consciousness, etc, as a "soul". Some animals certainly have some (or all) of these things.

    Do I have a soul in this sense? Yes. "I think therefore I am". As Descartes said, it's the only thing a person can know for sure.

    Will it survive after death? I seriously doubt it. There's simply no evidence whatsoever that it will. But yes, I admit that it's possible. I don't know everything.

    And neither do you. Which is why it is extremely dangerous for you to say you "know that you're not wrong". I just hope, for your sake, that you have friends and family that will continue to support you when your faith shatters. When the real world pops your fantasy bubble.

    It's only a matter of time before your blinders are lifted off. I'm glad to see you're thinking about it superficially, but try actually thinking about each my arguments instead of just falling back on your own beliefs. Think outside of your beliefs. Take the atheist point of view and see how it suits you. If you're right, challenging your beliefs can only strengthen them, right?

  30. My beliefs are the foundation of truth, that is why I will always fall back on them. I do love it when others challenge my beliefs, just like you said, it can only strengthen them. But sometimes it’s like climbing a mountain of jello trying to convince an atheist that God exists. Even though the evidence is overwhelming, you will still deny it. It’s like gravity - you can’t see it or touch it, but logically you still believe it’s there.

    I was not always a believer, if fact, I was a hard-core skeptic most of my life, and lived my life to the fullest, but I was blinded by lies. Only recently I began to study and found the Truth in the Bible. I already know it sounds like utter foolishness to you, so I there really is not much more I can say. If you have specific questions, I am happy to answer them logically, but the source will always come back to the Bible, and I just know how that makes your skin crawl.

  31. Well, you are right about what I think is foolish and what makes my skin crawl (in an intellectual sense, at least). Just as I'm sure much of what I say has the same effect on you. So at least we've reached some sort of mutual understanding here. Nice.

    I am curious about what sort of "overwhelming evidence" there is for God, but I know we'd just go back and forth on what counts as evidence, and I'll use logic and you'll use faith and it won't lead anywhere. So let's not go there.

  32. I don't know if anyone noticed this, but isn't "conscience" the word you should use, not "conscious"? I have nothing to add to the discussion, but that partciular typo bugs me. After all, one should assume that Deb is awake, as her posts are significantly better than if she were sleepblogging.

  33. Yamathan - thanks for the correction. *blush*

    I am still recovering from public school.

  34. That's the typo I was making fun of in the first comment here. I thought Dani was making fun of Deb by putting it in quotes...guess it was actually a mistake.

    So I apologize for making fun of your making fun of Deb for a mistake which she made when it was actually a mistake that you made, and I was mistaken in thinking it wasn't a mistake and making fun of the mistake.


  35. Thanks Phronk - I was wondering what the heck you were talking about. In the future, please feel free to just point out any errors directly. Sometimes I am just a dumbass and don't know how to use words properly. ;> Forgive me.

    I used it in quotations because Deb said this in her post, "I believe that your conscience is a gift from God."

    Anyway, I better go. Maybe sometime in the near future I will post something about God, creation and science, and we can debate the issues and the overwhelming evidence there.

    Take care my atheist friend.

  36. This is not an attack just a couple of questions to understand you better.

    Since you are "anti-homosexuality" as it is against your religious beliefs are you anti-Judaism? Are gays especially evil in your eyes or just socially acceptable targets?

    And I'm sure you'll have an answer for this but... Pro-Death & Penalty Pro-Gun (Thou Shall Not Kill) I don't get it, is it OK because you are not physically doing the killing? What about the Judge or Jury that sends someone to their death? As you're prolly aware in Canada we have strict gun laws and no death penalty.

  37. Thanks for stopping by!

    No I am not anti-Judaism, why would I be?

    Homosexual acts, along with the homosexual spiritual and cultural agenda, are the epitome of evil. Sexual immorality of any kind is clearly in violation of God’s Law. Homosexuals are not only sexual deviants, as are fornicators and adulterers; but they also have gone a step further in their wickedness and gone against nature, glorified their perversion to the world and exchanged the truth of God for a lie.

    I know that Pro-Death Penalty & Pro-Gun seems like an oxymoron on the surface, but there is nothing wrong with owning a gun to defend yourself and your family. Murder is wrong. Killing can be justified in times of self-defense, times of war, or for governments to put to death criminals. I do not go out on a shooting spree, obviously - guns are merely for protection. Whereas the death penalty is a righteous punishment for convicted criminals - murderers, rapists, child molesters, ect. People do not have the authority to institute capital punishment on their own, but the Judges do. Unfortunately, they hardly ever punish criminals according to their crimes, hence the crime epidemic. You can read more about pro-death penalty on This Post.

  38. When God get mad, God SMASH!

  39. Hi Dani,

    Thanks for your response. I have a couple of more questions and comments if you’re good with that.

    I would assume you would be anti-Judaism as Jewish beliefs are not inline with yours. They do not believe in Hell, or that Jesus was our savior, etc. So in that case they are doing just what upsets you about homosexuals (mocking God). Why would you be OK with one (Judaism) and not the not another (Homosexuals). If not people of the Jewish faith what about Protestants who believe it is OK to use birth control (I’m not sure if it's OK in Judaism). That's against your beliefs so you must be anti-protestant, no?

    I’m confused about the statement you made in the linked post regarding the death penalty...God is the One who instituted the death penalty to begin with. He delegates authority to judges to carry out capital punishments for certain crimes committed. How do you know God delegated the authority to modern day judges? Could it have been the devil? If the judge is an atheist or a homosexual why would GOD give a judge such power? (as I'm sure you're aware these judges exist) Did God or the Devil assign the “abnormal” sexual behavior of homosexuals to them?

    Also I believe your violent crime rates are "through the roof” because of the easy access to firearms in the US and your government focusing on the rich and middle class. I have been to the US many times and had seen poverty that I would never see in Canada. It is much more difficult to get a handgun or even a rifle here and Canadians live in a society where we care more for our poor to avoid such situations. I believe higher taxes = safety (to pay for better social programs) not forcing a specific set of religious views on society as a whole.

    Finally with regard to the same post what if the US government followed the laws according another religion. Let's say laws were created as per Muslim beliefs...would you be OK with that? Surely that would reduce crime even more or what about communism? Well then there would be next to no crime if communism was in place. And the government could kill whoever they wanted. However, you may be forced to follow rules that are in direct contrast with your own or may not even have the right to be a Christian. Maybe the pope should rule the world...if he did you as a woman would not have the rights and freedoms you have now. I guess I'm saying where do you think we should draw the line?

    I do agree with your self-defense comments but if there was tighter gun control in your country there would be no need for individuals to own guns. Maybe that's something to fight your govt. for as it will benefit everyone.

  40. Sure, I'm good with that - I always welcome thought provoking questions, so thank you.

    While the Jewish beliefs are not inline with mine, they do not upset me because they do not openly mock God, prance around the streets and glorify their "sins" to the world by demanding "equal" rights. Ever been to a "Jewish Pride" parade? Well, we've been to a "gay pride" parade and it was pretty foul! Go here to see for yourself => Dirty Denver's Shameful Pride

    Sure, Jews don't believe Jesus was our Savior, but neither does most of the world. It's their loss really. As long as they keep to themselves, I have no beef with them.

    As for Protestants, I have nothing against them either. I am on birth control and I don't believe it is against God's will. When we are ready to have a few more kids, I will simply get off of it. There is no moral dilemma about using birth control, just personal opinions.

    "How do you know God delegated the authority to modern day judges?"

    Well originally, God instituted Judges to uphold God's Laws like The Ten Commandments - and bring about justice in a righteous manner. But, unfortunately many of the judges today reject God and are corrupt to the core, just like the system itself. See, since we have taken God out of the equation, we no longer have a "Justice System" now it is "Just-a-System."

    The violent crime rates are "through the roof” NOT because of the easy access to firearms, but because of a lack of righteous punishment! If convicted criminals were swiftly put to death, then they would not have the opportunity to commit more crimes and it would be a good deterrent for others not to become criminals.

    "Did God or the Devil assign the “abnormal” sexual behavior of homosexuals to them?"

    God did! Since people have chosen to reject God and believe lies, He gave them over to the lusts of the hearts, vile passions and a debased mind. This is what the book of Romans says:

    "Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever… For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind."

    Finally, I am not for communism, or forcing a belief system on anyone. But all governments world wide should uphold the basic laws and principals of "Do Not Murder," "Do Not Steal," "Do Not Bear False Witness," "Do Not Commit Adultery," ect. Those laws should be universal across all nations - regardless of what religion because they were instituted by the Creator of the universe and ensure a safe society!

  41. To answer you questions...

    Yes, I suppose I have been to the equivalant of a Jewish Pride festival. I've been to a Jewish Film festival, Passover and I could go to temple with a friend but I don't because it's not for me. They openly admit that they do not believe Jesus exited. Is that not mocking God in your eyes?

    I don't think it's nice or fair of you to make a comment like "prance around the streets" as I'm quite sure everyone didn't "prance" around...agreed? I'm quite sure you didn't go to Gay Pride in Denver with an open mind and I'm pretty sure your're aware it's not created for someone with your beliefs to enjoy but I'm sure you'll always be welcomed as long as you don't voice your negative concerns during the festival. So let's put that behind us.

    Sorry, I assumed you were Roman Cathloic and followed the Vatican. As I am RC I am well aware of their stance on birth control.

    We can agree to disagree on the firearms debate but I do agree with your comment "If convicted criminals were swiftly put to death..." that could be easily accomplished with Islam or one of many other religions. Why should it be yours? I do not however agree that we have the right to say who dies and who doesn't (incl euthenasia).

    God would give an 11 year old "over to the lusts of the hearts, vile passions and a debased mind"? (That's around when puberty starts for boys and begins to identify sexual attraction.)

    I'm guessing that in almost every country in the world the basic laws and principals you mentioned are punishable by law in some way. I won't cover "Do Not Murder," "Do Not Steal".
    "Do Not Bear False Witness" - purgery, slander, etc.
    Even adultry gives the cheater a disadvantage in divorce court in North America.

    PS sorry for turning your last post into Bunny's Blog but I couldn't help myself. Have a great day!

  42. No worries about turning my last post into Bunny's Blog. Feel free to comment or debate with whoever you want for as long as you want. I truly enjoy reading the dialog and I think others do to. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the time to respond to every single comment, but I sure appreciate when people like Bunny can take over for me. I hope it's been fun for you, I know I'm having a good time and continuing to learn in the process.

    I will try to answer all your questions, but if you have more - just keep 'em coming!

    Since Jews do openly admit that they do not believe Jesus exited - I don't necessarily believe that they are mocking God, but rather openly rejecting Him and being willfully ignorant of the truth - which is also bad but a little different.

    At the "Gay Pride" parade, homosexuals WERE prancing around the streets - didn't you look at the photos? Of course we don't go to an even like that with an open mind - Christians go to protest and we expect to get persecuted in the process. Nonetheless, it doesn't take away from the fact that it is nauseating to watch. The purpose is to find that one lost soul who wants to truly repent, then it is all worthwhile. But enough about that, we can just drop it.

    I do agree with your comment "If convicted criminals were swiftly put to death..." that could be easily accomplished with Islam or one of many other religions. Why should it be yours?

    Well, without sounding too prideful, it is because mine is the one TRUE religion with the One True God who instituted those laws from the beginning. Of course, other religions could accomplish the same results, but they would only do so based on God's Justice system. Regardless, as long as convicted criminals receive just punishment for their crimes, I care not what religion enforces it.

    I am curious to know why think we have the right to say who dies and who doesn't. Are you the author and creator of life? What gives you such authority to end the life of another human being?

    Also, I wouldn't say that God would give an 11 year old "over to the lusts of the hearts, vile passions and a debased mind" simply because that is around when puberty starts for boys and begins to identify sexual attraction. There is an age of accountability that we all enter into at some point, and it varies from each individual. Obviously, it is the parents responsibility to teach their children moral standards, and self-control so they do not give into the lusts of their flesh. If however, the children rebel against God later in life, surely He would give them over to a debased mind.

    Why does adultery give the cheater a disadvantage in divorce court in North America? Please explain - I'm confused about that one.

    P.S. - Also, I've been meaning to tell you that your screen name and the picture you have on your profile is absolutely hilarious! And, I don't know if this is deliberate, and I certainly have NO room to be correcting someone else's spelling, but "judgmental" does not have the letter "e" after the "g". Not like it really matters - so please don't take offense.

    You have a great day too! Happy Friday!

  43. That's why the world is in bad shape because of people like you Dani.

  44. Setting the Record Straight: An Open Apology to “Lesbian” Deb & Public Repentance for Following Bob Enyart



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